This follow-up discussion on the subject of hell took place on The O’Reilly Factor just three days after the previous Spiritual Perspectives reported on last week. The first guest affirmed the idea that God would not send anyone to hell. The second interview was with Franklin Graham (the son of Billy Graham) on Thursday, April 28, 2011. He was apparently invited to offer a different view from the one previously presented. Bill began by referencing the book that was on the cover of Time and then proceeded to ask questions.
Bill: …a preacher in Michigan who wrote a book says there’s no hell, that God is not a monster; He wouldn’t assign any human being to eternal damnation. How do you answer that?
Graham: Well, first of all, I believe that man is a false teacher. I believe he’s a heretic—because the Bible is very clear that there is a hell. And if you look at Revelation 20, not only is a person condemned to hell, they are thrown into hell, Bill. That’s how serious it is.
Editor: Graham is correct in all that he said here; the man is a false teacher and a heretic, but remember that Graham would probably say the same thing of us as it pertains to our teaching on salvation.
Bill: Isn’t that a cruel action?
Franklin: A cruel action? What’s cruel is a person who rejects Almighty God and slams the door in God’s face.
Editor: Would hell be a more acceptable doctrine if God set each one down gently in the place of eternal torment? Graham went on to talk about God’s love for the world (John 3:16), the fact that we are all sinners (Rom. 3:23, 6:23), and that Jesus died for the sins of each person—thus explaining that it is man who rejects God and chooses his own destiny. Eventually Bill interrupted to pose (and answer) a question.
Bill: What about people who don’t know the Bible? See, some evangelicals say that you can’t get to heaven unless you are born again through Jesus Christ. But there throughout history have been people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.
Franklin: And that’s been an argument, Bill, from Day One. And it’s very clear what the Bible teaches. Jesus said, “I’m the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” But we know that, when people get before the great white throne of judgment in Revelation 20, that God has made Himself known to all of humanity, whether it’s through nature, watching the sun come up in the morning…. There’s not a person out there who doesn’t ask at some point, “Is there a God?”
Editor: John 14:6 is precisely what the Bible teaches. The only way to be saved is through Jesus. Acts 4:12 adds: “Nor is there salvation in any other for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” It should be observed that these are not the comments of evangelicals or theologians. Jesus Himself made the declaration that no one comes to the Father except through Him. Peter made the second statement in Acts 4:12. If words mean anything, then people must be saved through Jesus!
What Graham was arguing (time constraints did not allow for a full exploration of the topic) was that God has revealed Himself: 1) through the natural creation and 2) by special revelation. Paul made this argument in Romans 1. God’s attributes are clearly seen in the creation so that man is without excuse (Rom. 1:20). No one can say to God, “I didn’t know you were there.” The evidence is all around us. God also gave us the Bible, His revelation, which communicates the details of the ways in which we are to respond to Him. Every person wonders where the physical creation came from and knows that a powerful Builder exists.
Bill: Are you saying that, if somebody believes in the goodness of the Creator, they can be saved?
Franklin: Nobody will have an excuse when they stand before God. I believe if a person is sincerely seeking Almighty God, that He will reveal His Son Jesus in some way.
Editor: Bill’s question needs to be more defined. What does it mean, for example, for someone to believe in the goodness of the Creator? Observing the physical universe would cause one to believe that God is both powerful and good, but on what basis would that knowledge save anyone? Graham’s response may be based on verses such as Jeremiah 29:13. God knows those who are genuinely seeking Him, as well as those who have no real interest. Many believe that God will afford the opportunity for salvation through His providence.
Bill: Let me give you a stark example. You know there were millions killed in the Holocaust—Jewish people, who don’t accept Jesus Christ as God, but they were good people, good innocent people. Children. Massacred! I can’t imagine that they’re not in heaven.
Editor: This subject is too time-consuming for a brief spot on national television. First, if a person is innocent of any wrongdoing and unworthy of death, does being murdered guarantee an entrance into heaven? Many innocent souls are murdered in America every day. We are all saddened that such things occur, but no verse of Scripture teaches that those individuals shall be saved as a result of their ill treatment.
In fact, Jesus dealt with just such tragedies. There were some Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with their sacrifices. Jesus asked if they were worse sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered that fate. The answer was, “I tell you, no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” The same was true of those upon whom the tower of Siloam fell (Luke 13:1-5). Jesus did not affirm that any of these victims were saved as a result of their untimely and cruel deaths. Quite the opposite is true, in fact. Because life is uncertain, one must be prepared and in a right relationship with God no matter what happens. Anyone could be murdered or accidentally killed at any time. Those events do not save. Jesus saved people from their sins. Even martyrs had no guarantee of salvation if they did not have love for their brethren (1 Cor. 13:3).
Second, the Jewish people killed in the Holocaust were unworthy of that destruction, not having committed any crimes meriting such treatment, but the fact that they were Jews meant that they rejected Jesus as the Son of God. As far as God is concerned, they were antagonistic toward Him by rejecting His Son. They had the opportunity to hear of Jesus and respond positively toward Him, but they chose to reject Him. The unjust manner of their death does not change their damnation into salvation.
Third, the fact that people are good neighbors and decent, moral people likewise does not merit salvation. All have still sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Man cannot be saved on his own merit—by doing good or being generous. All these things are right, but if those could save us, we would not have needed Jesus to go to the cross for us. Man cannot be saved by his own goodness.
Fourth, the adults must be distinguished from the children. Children are born in a state of innocence, and it takes a few years before they have the ability to think and reason for themselves—before they reach the age of accountability. Since they are not lost, they will be in heaven. Ironically, only the children who were put to death in the Holocaust (or as the result of any other tragedy) are the ones who actually will enter heaven, but they do not do so by virtue of their suffering, but rather because they were never lost in the first place.
The exchange that followed was rapid, with both men sometimes talking at the same time. All of the stuttering and a few extraneous words have been removed to make the conversation more coherent.
Franklin: Bill, all I can tell you is what this Book right here, the Bible….
Bill: No, no, no. You gotta bring some logic to this, with all due respect.
Franklin: No, you have to have faith, Bill.
Bill: I do have faith. I have faith in a just God. I believe in a just God.
Franklin: And He is a just God. And He’s gonna judge sin. And He’s gonna judge all sinners.
Editor: Franklin did not make the four points listed above, but he was correct in trying to focus attention on the Bible and what it says. Bill inappropriately called that not being logical. Remember that in the previous conversation with the false teacher on Monday evening, he said that it was insane not to think that the victims of the Holocaust were not saved. It is obvious that this is an emotional issue for Bill (as it is for all of us), but what Bill probably meant was that disagreeing with his view was illogical. The four points listed above are a logical answer to Bill’s comments.
Franklin erred in agreeing with Bill’s charge. He implied that faith trumps logic, which is a mistake that many evangelicals make. God is logical; His Word is logical. To retreat to the idea that faith is better than logic makes it sound as though he agrees with many modern theological liberals, that belief in God and His Word is based on a leap of faith, which is false. “So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17) The Word produces faith in us when we reason and evaluate the truths it teaches. We do not blindly accept what the Bible says, but its teachings were accompanied by miracles (It also has internal proofs of its origin – see www.MiraculousBible.org).
A full treatment of this subject would include the Bible’s amazing unity, the fulfilled prophecies, which no other work can claim, and the miracles that God set before the people to prove that Jesus is His Son (John 20:30-31). God never asked people to believe without intelligent reasons to do so, but once we know that the Bible is His communication to us, we know that it is entirely correct on any subject it addresses.
When Bill says that he believes in a just God, we do not doubt him, but whose definition of justice are we using—God’s or man’s? According to the guest earlier in the week, he could not accept eternal torment for anyone. It was simply not just, according to him. Man cannot sit in judgment on God; God sits in judgment on us. Franklin is therefore correct in saying that God will sit in judgment on all sinners.
Bill: But innocent people were killed without being revealed or didn’t know about Jesus or didn’t believe in Him because of their parents or something else. I can’t imagine that they’re damned. I can’t imagine.
Editor: These objections have been answered above, but one further comment is appropriate. Even atheists are wrongfully put to death on occasion. Apparently, Madalyn Murray O’Hair was cheated, robbed, and murdered by unscrupulous men. Does she get a free pass to heaven? Those who killed her God will judge, but the treachery committed upon her will not change the punishment she is due for a life of rejection of God and railing against Him.
Franklin: Bill, I’m not the judge. God is the judge, but when we stand before Him…. Forget the children of the Holocaust….
Bill: I can’t forget them.
Franklin: No, but I’m just saying right now for this argument, for yourself, for those that are watching—what have we done with Jesus Christ? Have we accepted Him? Are we ready? Are we ready to stand before the throne?
Editor: While it is true that God is the judge and we are not (gratefully) and that His judgment is just, He has declared certain things to us in His word, such as John 14:6 and Acts 4:12. His Word is not changeable; it is entirely credible. We either believe these verses, therefore, and know that those outside of Christ (of an accountable age) are lost, or we do not have the proper understanding of those verses. However, they both seem clear and unambiguous.
Franklin turns the discussion back from the past to the present (and just in time since a commercial break was forthcoming). In effect, he says that arguing over the fate of those killed in the Holocaust is irrelevant so far as we are concerned. We have the opportunity to study the Bible, and we have the opportunity to become Christians. Of course, he did not mention obeying the gospel or being baptized.
Bill: I just want to clarify. I’m 100% with you. God gives every human being free will. We can choose what we do. And we will be held accountable. I absolutely believe that, for what we choose.
Editor: This was the end of the discussion, and it closed on a note of irony and contradiction. If we will all be held accountable for what we choose, then why are not the Jewish adults who were killed in the Holocaust not responsible for their lifelong rejection of Christ? One cannot have the issue both ways: Either we are responsible for the choices we make, or we are not. If we hear the truth and reject it, we are indeed accountable for that decision. Bill stated it right at the end but erroneously during the discussion.
Bill’s agreement at the end did not imply that he was changing his position on the Holocaust. He reaffirmed that position the next evening (Friday, April 29th) in response to an e-mail from a viewer who claimed that O’Reilly had let Graham off the hook. The host said he challenged him on it, and that was all he could do.
It is interesting that both men agreed that we have free will when so many religious leaders are Calvinistic. One wonders how a more in-depth analysis of the subject would have turned out, but both parties agreed that human beings have free will, which is true, or there would be no basis for discussion. If everything were ordained concerning what we believe, then trying to change a point of view would be useless. So would analysis of any kind because, after we finished the examination, we would all still believe what we were decreed to believe.
God can only hold us accountable for what we choose to believe and practice. This eliminates children because they believe largely what they are told until they reach an age where they can evaluate things for themselves.
These two discussions were of interest. Graham did a good job, considering the time constraints—except for pitting faith against logic, but the original guest, who took the position that hell does not exist, probably reflects the thinking of the majority of ministers today. Many of these got their theological training, apparently, from the rock group, Blood, Sweat, and Tears. From the song, “And When I Die,” come the lyrics: “I can swear there ain’t no heaven, and I pray there ain’t no hell. But I’ll never know by living; only my dying will tell.”
Of course, that last line is not true. God revealed the truth to us about what occurs after this life so that we can know before death happens (Luke 16:19-31). We need to know now because this is the only time to make changes and be sure that we are pleasing to God. Repentance is too late after death. Every rotten person who ever lived will be repenting then. Those who are teaching the error that there is no hell will have much to answer for in the judgment; like the false prophets of old, they are assuring people that they are safe and will not face judgment, which contributes to what they already wanted to believe in the first place. This is a case of the blind leading the blind (Matt. 15:14).