On Monday evening, April 25, 2011, the host of The O’Reilly Factor engaged in a discussion with “Pastor” Jack McKinney, Ph. D. (which in this instance surely stands for Philosophically Deficient), of Raleigh, North Carolina. He was invited to appear after Time published an article on the same day, titled, “What If There Is No Hell?” That article centers around Pastor Rob Bell of the Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, Michigan (just south of Grand Rapids). As with most who start down this road, he is a universalist—a person who believes that all people are saved through Christ’s death on the cross.
McKinney was selected to represent Bell’s position, and, as is typical, O’Reilly got right into the interview after providing the background for the discussion.
Bill (referring to the Time article): So, good news for Adolph, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and other villains who slaughtered millions of people, right? … They’re not gonna pay. That sounds like good news, hunh?
Jack: Yeah, Bill, I think that would not be the issue—except the church doesn’t just teach that mass murderers go to hell. They teach that people like Gandhi go to hell, and that puts God in a very difficult place. We’re turning God into a monster by teaching…a literal hell.
Editor: No, I wasn’t on O’Reilly, but since I am reporting the conversation, I get to comment on what each individual said. First, Bill is asking a legitimate question, which Jack sidestepped. If there is no hell, then none of these men is punished, and the world is left without a system of justice because justice certainly does not prevail on earth. Ask the family members about those who murdered their loved ones and were released and unpunished due to a legal technicality. Or what about the high percentage of murders that are never solved in the first place?
The only place where true justice can be rendered is on the Day of Judgment by the One Who gave Himself for the sins of the whole world, the One Who is the perfect Mediator between God and men (John 5:27; 1 Tim. 2:5). Rather than deal with the fate of the wicked, Jack tried to put Christianity and the Bible on the defensive. The Gandhi allegation will be dealt with later, but notice how typical it is for those who try to discredit hell to be so bold as to call God a monster if hell exists.
Matson spoke similarly in his debate with brother Warren; Edward Fudge does the same thing in his work, The Fire That Consumes. What these men ought to realize is that, first of all, these words will be brought up in the Day of Judgment (Matt. 12:36-37). Second, if they possessed an ounce of humility, they would surely think twice about sitting in judgment on God! Rather, it is Deity Who sits in judgment upon us. God has all power and can do whatever He wishes. Furthermore, will him who is created actually have the lack of good sense to tell the Creator how to operate His universe? Is it possible that God might have just a little more knowledge than a Ph. D.? Both “pastors” need to read Job 38-41; they obviously missed the point.
Unfortunately, O’Reilly, who is not always knowledgeable in the Scriptures, responded by saying that his church, the Catholic Church, does not teach that all non-Christians are lost.
Jack: Other segments of the church teach a literal hell for anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus. I think it’s a theological and historical mistake.
Editor: Adversaries of the Bible are always blaming the church for teaching doctrines they do not like, but their actual problem is with the Scriptures themselves. Jesus said, “…for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Nevertheless, Bill went on to defend the Catholic Church.
Bill: I think that’s an extreme position. [Then he read a statement of the Catholic Church position, GWS.] “Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart [which would be Gandhi, BO’R] and moved by His grace try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience, can also be saved without water baptism. They are said to desire implicitly. That is called the baptism of desire.” I was taught that in the 3rd grade. That the Holocaust victims—who were principally Jewish—they’re damned because they’re not Catholic? That’s insane. All right. Little babies who die upon birth—they can’t get baptized. They’re not going to heaven? That’s insane.
I think the problem is with this “no hell” business is that you have to deal with the Hitlers and the Pol Pots and these tyrants. And if you say there is no hell, then there really isn’t any regulation of behavior at all. And Scripture goes right against that, does it not?
Editor: First if all, it is not an extreme position to say what the Bible says. Jesus was speaking to Jews when He told them that they would die in their sins if they did not accept Him as the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior. They would not be lost because they were Catholic but because they rejected Jesus as the Christ. “No one comes to the Father except through” Jesus (John 14:6). There is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved (Acts 4:12). This is not what a church says; it is not manmade theology. These are simple words spoken in the New Testament. To reject them is to reject the Bible, period. This is not an extreme position; it is the truth.
The Catholic quotation is very interesting, but it is not inspired of God. Furthermore, it is a relatively recent position, since the Catholic Church once taught that all non-Catholics were lost. They also taught not too long ago that babies must be “baptized” (although they mean sprinkled), or they would be lost. But now they have developed “the baptism of desire,” which is totally foreign to the Scriptures.
Jews are not saved because they were victims of the Holocaust. We all sympathize with those who endured such inhuman treatment, but being treated unmercifully does not save anyone. Atheists have been murdered; does that mean they are saved? Salvation comes through Christ, not by being the victim of murder. Such events are tragic, but they underscore the need for being prepared because no one knows when they may enter into eternity as the result of an accident or at the hands of evil men.
Babies are not in danger because they are guilty of no sin. The only individual in need of salvation is the one who has sinned against God and can comprehend the plan God gave for redemption.
O’Reilly is correct in pointing out that, without fear of punishment, few would find motivation to behave properly. Scripture does teach punishment for bad behavior (Rev. 21:8).
Jack: No, I think there’s been a real historical and theological misinterpretation of Scripture about hell. But your point, there, Bill’s, a good one—that all across the church you have different interpretations about what hell really is and who’s headed there.
The end result, though, is, if you’re talking about eternal damnation for people—that is a very psychological debilitating thing. I see it all the time in my counseling practice. I see good committed Christians (for instance, gay people, good committed gay Christians) who’ve been told they’re an abomination; they’re going to hell forever. It does enormous damage.
Editor: Hey, Jack. Have you considered how much damage they will sustain in eternity by your telling them they are all right now? Can one envision John telling Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother Herod’s wife,” only to have a weepy-eyed Herod respond by saying, “Oh, that’s so psychologically debilitating”? How debilitating is it to be thrown into prison?
Pastor Jack would have to rebuke Paul for reasoning with Felix and Drusilla about “righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come” (Acts 24:25). It simply would not do to have debilitated rulers, would it?
Who was surprised that the example of poor, persecuted Christians would be good, committed, homosexual couples? Why is it always them? Why not talk about the good committed adulterous couples (like Herod and Herodias)? What about the singles living in fornication? Surely, some of those are committed Christians. Let’s not forget the committed covetous couples or the committed liars such as Ananias and Sapphira. All of this overlooks the simple principle that, when people become Christians, they must repent of their sins—not continue to live in them. If they refuse to give up sin, they cannot even be deemed Christians, let alone committed Christians. Jack needs to quit reading theology and concentrate on simple verses of Scripture, such as: “…unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3); cf. Acts 2:38).
There has been no theological or historical misunderstanding; these verses mean just what they say. They are so uncomplicated that you would need a Ph. D. to misunderstand them. Consider what Jesus said:
“Then He will say to those on His left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Matt. 25:41).
“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matt. 25:46).
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matt. 7:13-14).
Theologians can make up all the interpretations they want to, but anyone can understand the plain words of the Lord. There is a right behavior and a wrong behavior, and God defines which is which. The narrow way is the way of obedience to the Lord; the broad way is the way that seems right to a man but leads to death (Pr. 14:12).
Bill: My church tells people, “You don’t make those judgments. … We’re all sinners. … I’ll submit to you, if there is no hell, Judeo-Christian tradition just breaks down.” [Bill gives Judas as an example of bad behavior. He betrayed Jesus and did not repent. Whoever does such a thing is wrong.] “You are gone! If that doesn’t exist, nothing matters, does it?”
Jack: But, Bill, you just articulated judgment is best left in the hands of God. But by teaching a literal, eternal hell, we turn God into a monster, Bill.
Editor: Really? We are not to make judgments (like calling God a monster)? What about when John called people a brood of vipers (Matt. 3:7)? If we could not make judgments, we could never preach the gospel because we would not be able to tell who was saved or who was lost! How could we ever tell anyone to repent? Both are wrong in that assessment, but Bill is correct in saying that, with Jack’s position, nothing else matters. Without an authoritative objective standard of truth, no one can determine right from wrong. Without the threat of punishment, no one has any motivation to be kind to another. Bill finally does a good job of expressing what the Bible teaches in his next comment.
Bill: I think God wants everybody to repent, wants everybody to be good, and gives everybody the opportunity to do that. Free will. But if you spit in the face of God and you kill millions of people, I think there has to be a reckoning.
Editor: Finally, the idea of 2 Peter 3:9 is stated; God does want all men to come to repentance. And if they do not, there is a day of reckoning coming. What would happen if a child were taught not to steal, but did anyway, if there were no penalty? What happens to most people if a law is given but no penalty is attached to it? No one feels any compulsion to obey. How hard is that to figure out? Even with the threat of a traffic fine, people still travel 80 mph (or more) on the interstate; what would things be like without an enforced speed limit? In fact, why bother to have laws, period?
Jack: So you think hell is designed for mass murderers, killers, those kind of people?
Bill: People who turn their back on good (unrepentant people who do evil in this world), I believe, will get something when they die. They will not be with the Lord in heaven.
Jack: Yeah. I wish that only that was being said out in the church…. [Bill noticed that he did not agree, however, as to those who practice evil; so he proceeded.]
Bill: But do you believe what I believe? Do you believe that?
Jack: No, I don’t believe in a literal hell. I think it’s a historical and theological mistake.
Editor: Not only has he now tediously repeated himself with this phrase three times, Bill finally got it out of him that he does not believe that even the worst of individuals will ever suffer torment. How pathetic. He does not believe that God would be just to sentence even the worst of human beings to eternal torment. Thus, he retains the right to sit in judgment on God (which is folly).
Bill: Do you believe in a literal heaven?
Jack (reluctantly and sheepishly): I do.
Bill: Okay; so that means you’re gonna see Adolph up there. Say hello to him for me; I don’t want to be anywhere near him.
For What Did Jesus Die?
Apparently, Jack thinks that all people will be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus, but why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins? Someone might say: “He needed to save us from the consequences of our sins.” Okay. So if Jesus had not endured the excruciating pain and suffering on our behalf, what would have happened to us? Don’t even think about saying, “We would have suffered torment in hell,” because according to this theology, hell does not exist.
The only thing that one could possibly argue is that we needed the blood of Jesus to cleanse us and make us fit for heaven. In fact, we are washed and made clean by the blood of Jesus (1 Cor. 5:11; Rev. 1:5), but where would mankind be if Jesus had remained in heaven? “Well, we would not be in the presence of God.” Okay; so where would we be? Have any of these Ph. D.s ever stopped to think that not being in the presence of God is being in hell?
Those who do not know God and have not obeyed the gospel shall spend eternity away from the presence of the Lord (2 Thess. 1:7-9). Even if one leaves out the “flaming fire,” it remains a dismal prospect. People must be somewhere, and there are only two choices—in His presence with all the blessings He has to offer or away from His presence where neither He nor any of His blessings are. Is God a monster to exclude from His presence those who did not want to be in it? Is He so terrible to set apart those who had the truth but refused to abide by it because they wanted their own way—their own religion? No, they did not want Him despite all of His pleadings and Jesus’ dying for them. They had free will, and that is what they chose.
Matthew 7:14 refutes the error that God will save all men. We all have the choice now, and what we decide determines where we abide. For eternity. Let us make the right decision.