Thus far, Buford has been disrespectful to those in the Lord’s church and proceeded on the assumption that he is correct in his conclusions—but that faithful and scholarly brethren are just taking someone’s word for what they believe, having never studied the doctrine of eternal torment for themselves. He calls the majority view “Good Old Boy” Theology and accuses anyone who disagrees with him of using “spin.” Furthermore, he is prone to rambling and failing to respond to the point at hand. Most of Part 2 consisted of his “arguments. The correspondence continued with this writer answering his last e-mail.
Gary to Buford;
The discussion does not center on who God is; the discussion centers on what the Bible says about Him—the truth He has revealed about Himself. Since He does not measure up to your image of Him, then the Bible must be wrong. It is no use denying this is your position; you have already made that clear too often. As long as you have this approach, you have already made up your mind and are not genuinely seeking what the Bible reveals.
Most people do not have trouble understanding figurative language. Being tormented forever is eternal death. Naturally one would have to have consciousness to experience it, but God does not call it life. If you cannot understand the parallelism, I cannot help you. The next comment you made concerned the rich man and Lazarus is incredible. You wrote:
Gary, are you serious about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? You write as if this is the final judgment. Come on Gary. The rich man had 5 brothers still alive on earth. They were in HADES and you know it. Come on. The point of the parable was that even though Jesus would rise from the dead many would deny it.
I did not write as if the rich man had already received the final judgment, but the text says he was in torments. It started upon his death. When does it end? He was conscious—not annihilated. Has he been in torments for 2,000 years? If so, is not God still a monster to torment someone for so long a time? After all, 2,000 years of burning is a good start on eternity. He is surely accustomed to his suffering by now, wouldn’t you think? Is it fair that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah have been suffering (present tense) for 4,000 years while those who die just before the Lord returns may only have a few days before annihilation? How do you reconcile all these people being tortured for so long?
You twice called the rich man and Lazarus a parable; where is your proof? It does not have the characteristics of a parable in which one thing represents something else. What do Hades, torments, and all of the other things mentioned represent? You called it the Hadean realm, which indicates you take the punishment and the reward as literal, which means you do not consider it a parable, either, although you call it one.
There is too much to discuss to go on with the rest of your e-mail. I will not comment any further until you respond to my last response and this one.
Buford to Gary:
Afternoon, Gary,
We need to understand something. Even if you change your mind about the fate of the ungodly, I don’t expect you to admit it to me either in print or in conversation, and that’s OK. Back in the early 80’s two “big preachers” in the brotherhood stopped by for a visit when we lived in Throckmorton, TX. I attended ACC with one of them shortly after becoming a Christian in ’55. After asking them about God preserving most of humanity burning in fire forever, what happened was quite a surprise. They looked at one another, and one of them said that if I would give them my word that I would never tell, one of them would send me a book to read.
I had no idea what they had in mind, but I gave them my word. As of today one of the preachers is dead, but still, so long as I live, I will keep my word, never to tell even though I had no idea about the book I was to receive. The reason they asked me not to tell was because “if I told, they would be written up and written off” in some of the opinionated papers.
The book they sent me was written by Edward Fudge. I read it over several times, challenging every point he raised, especially about the fire and worm. This is my nature. This is why I visited and questioned every preacher in my hometown prior to being baptized into Christ. My uncle that taught me about forgiveness through Jesus had given me a list of questions to ask these preachers. I was at the point of getting serious or forgetting about this “God stuff.”
So I began attending worship where my uncle did—the one with “CHURCH OF CHRIST” fastened to a building with metal letters and a sign near the street that said about the same thing. I realized the building was NOT the church but said nothing about it. Neither did I fall for a lot of the people’s church vocabulary. I won’t go into everything that was being taught in ’55 that was changed later, but one was that the Holy Spirit was simply the Bible (the Bible is a “he”???). It was out of “fear of the tongue speakers.” It’s a shame how biblically ignorant most elders are, swallowing whatever the preachers preach.
I go over to the lectureships at ACU for one reason. I stop people and ask them if they are preachers. I tell them I don’t want to know their names or where they preach, but I have a question or two about the fate of the ungodly. It is never surprising that most tell me they know the soul is not inherently immortal, but they can’t preach it lest they would lose their jobs. Al Maxey has the courage to preach that the ungodly end up as ashes. No, I don’t agree with everything Al preaches, but then do I have to?? Don’t think so and don’t worry about it or care about it. I do know that he doesn’t believe God is a sadist.
What I hear at lectureships is no big surprise! I have an elder friend that teaches the biblical truth about the fate of the ungodly. His preacher came to him and said something like, “(his name), I’m so glad you are teaching this in your classes. Try to teach the other elders about this, and maybe someday it will become accepted here, at least by most. You know I can’t preach it now, or I’d be fired because most here are so legalistic they don’t believe they can be wrong about anything and go to heaven.”
Oh, yes, the truth about God is gaining ground. Maybe one day the 59% figure of the people that don’t believe hell is real will change for the better instead of increasing as it has over the past 50 years. Thankfully, preachers and leaders of other religious groups are learning not to support the Greeks and popes’ stand on the matter.
SO, Gary, I’m not looking for you to admit anything—just hoping you can preach somewhere someday that the ungodly will burn UP, ending up as ashes.
Considering “proof” about the rich man and Lazarus, there is no proof either way just as there is no proof there is a God. Proof is a matter of attitude within one’s mind—faith something is so or not so. Was Solomon right when he wrote that?
The people in Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes according to scripture (2 Peter). Any other assumption is spin to defend an unbiblical position people choose to defend.
Do the ungodly receive torment in Hades? If God chooses for them to, they do. Is this where the “few blows” and “many blows” (punishment understood by His audience) take place? If God chooses so. Will God’s “punishment fit the crime” so to speak? I believe it will because God is a righteous judge (2 Tim). Can one’s wickedness on earth be so bad as to bring torment in fire forever for the ungodly? The Bible reveals they will burn up, end up as ashes.
To deny these plainly written verses takes a lot of spin, mostly found in revised translation of Greek to read “forever,” in English due to the previous mindset of translators. Thankfully it was corrected in Philemon to read “for good” in the case of Onesimus!!
Did you know that aion in Matt 13:39 is translated showing an end of something, not forever? Do your homework on aion and you might find that it can mean other than “forever.” Always take into consideration those doing the translating—their past programming on the meanings of Greek words they translate into English.
Relax, Gary. You don’t have to admit anything to me. I just want you to think about where your ideas about the fate of the ungodly really came from past years. Was it from “preacher talk” or from your personal research? Be honest enough with yourself to think about what it is that you are you defending, and why.
[Editor’s note: Once again, he wandered everywhere and did not stick to the topic. Again, he assumed that no one has ever done any research except him and his uncle. Most anyone who has studied very much knows how the Greek word aion is used. (Actually, in Philemon 15 the word is a related word—aionios [166]. Furthermore, although Buford may have forgotten it, I had told him previously that I had written an evaluation of Fudge’s book. Perhaps he thought such could be done without doing research! In my next e-mail I tried to get him to focus on two huge points and used a little sarcasm in the process. For reasons best known to him, he never responded.]
Gary to Buford:
Don’t worry. You have not come close to saying anything that would persuade me to change my mind and have to “fess up” that you are right. You really are egotistical—so much so, in fact, that you can’t imagine anyone just reading and studying the Bible (as I have) possibly disagreeing with you! If you perused the articles on our Web Site (www.spiritualperspectives.org), you would see that I have challenged anyone (no matter how lofty he is) who has departed from the truth and used unsound reasoning (including those at Abilene). Truth is not determined by popularity, which (by the way) you claim favors your view. You are probably right. The denominations gave up the Biblical view of hell more than 30 years ago, and (as usual) brethren are limping along behind them.
I have never, in the course of 45 years, ever heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit IS the Bible, which is absurd. I don’t suppose you could find PROOF that anyone ever so taught—something in writing, perhaps? Are you trying to establish a straw man here?
When you finally get to the rich man and Lazarus, you really botch it badly. We can’t tell if it’s a parable? We don’t know if God exists? I don’t know where you were when brother Warren was debating atheists (probably taking worthless surveys at ACU), but I was paying attention. If you are an agnostic, you don’t have any business trying to teach anyone anything. Is there anything you KNOW? Or are you just admitting to be ignorant on every subject? Peter said for people to be able to give a defense of their faith (apologeia) (1 Peter 3:15), but you’re out there telling people they can’t know. This is truly pathetic.
If you can define what a parable (from para and ballo) is, then you know that one thing is thrown or cast alongside another, for purposes of comparison. You are surprisingly lacking in knowledge on this subject. Every parable can be explained; Jesus actually did so for the disciples with two difficult ones. He was not telling a parable concerning the rich man. If so, what is the explanation or meaning of it? It is a literal, straight-forward narrative. Was Solomon right when he wrote what? Your sentence appears to be unfinished.
Jude says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are still suffering (7). You have not touched even the hem of the garment on that verse. Furthermore, do you honestly think their spirits were reduced to ashes, or are you a Sadducean materialist? Or is that something else we just can’t know?
I’m the one who believes God is just and that whatever penalty He gives will be just. You’re the one who keeps calling Him a sadist. Therefore, the question is relevant. When does God become a sadist: after 2,000 years of punishment? 4,000? When?
Most people, contrary to your thinking, know the ways in which aion is used. It can mean less than eternal (age-lasting), but it can also mean eternal.
You keep telling me to relax; if I were any more relaxed, I’d be asleep. Let me know if you say anything worth waking up for.
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REPORT ON HAITI MISSION TRIP
Let me start by greeting you with the word of the apostle when he says: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose.”
January 12th happened in Haiti for a variety of reasons. Although it put tears in the eyes of people all over the world for those who lost their limbs, houses, cars, businesses, and loved ones, fortunately many are still alive. Their pain and their suffering were visible and still touchable. However, there is a good side to all this; most of those who are alive realize that they need to look for truth, and that is inevitable. Some of them are thirsty for that truth. Due to your prayers, support, and donations, my vision has become a reality. No one knows the price of a soul. Jesus says that joy shall be in heaven over one sinner who repented, over ninety-nine persons, which need no repentance. He added there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth (Luke 15: 7-10).
My mission to Haiti was successful by the grace of God and through your support. I flew to Haiti on July 29, 2010. On the 30th I went with brother Reno Bauvais, Adolphus Gilbert Jr., and Edouard Jean-Pierre, to join brother Manius Vixamar. We met about 400 people at a place named “Des Chappelles.” After service, 41 people were baptized—including 4 denominational preachers. On the 30th, we went to Miredalais, and 21 were baptized. On the 31st we took the road to Port-de-Paix; after 12 hours of rough terrain we arrived. It was around 9 P.M. on Sunday, August 1. There were services, and 27 people were baptized including the preacher and his assistant.
We left Port-de-Paix just after the worship service on Sunday. On Monday, August 2, we went to Lascaobas, and 11 people were baptized. On August 5th, we went to La Chappelle where 14 more were baptized. On August 6th, we went to Bainet, which was another 10-hour drive on an unpractical road. Four people were baptized, and a congregation was planted there.
To conclude, all of our accomplishments were just the beginning of the vision and your giving and donating products. Your help and support to those in need achieved the results we had in Port-de-Paix. I thank each one of you for this great accomplishment. However, as you can imagine, this is a job that has just started. Those brothers and sisters need to be taught and assisted in all kinds of ways. You can call, go see, and experience for yourself—or send others or send what is necessary to assist. Remember the great commission Matthew 28:18-20 must be fulfilled; this is the Word of God. Once again, thank you for everything. May God bless you all.
Junot Joseph