Back in February and March of this year a person who shall be referred to as Buford (not his real name) initiated contact via e-mail. He initially took issue with an article concerning alcohol that was on our website. Several are posted, and he did not specify which one he was responding to. His message was brief: “Why drink grape juice? Don’t you know their [sic] is a diffence [sic] in wine and grape juice.” Not all of his sentences had this many mistakes in them. Also the sentence should end with a question mark. Henceforth all the communication will be corrected so that the reader will not need to wade through the errors. He continued by commenting: “Is there a difference? The grape juice resulted from the Puritan influence. Well, wine and grape juice are different.” After quoting Numbers 6:3, he concluded with these flattering comments:
Read your Bible and quit throwing flowers at yourself for your “DO NOTS.” Does such a ridiculous quibble make you feel better about yourself?? Coming from denominationalism to Christianity, I have learned to spot and avoid you traditionalists—thank God……and his Word.
Buford
One would think that this conversation was going to be about the consumption of alcohol, but it shifted not too long after I wrote these comments:
Well, you’re long on indignation but short on argumentation, which is evidenced by the fact that you offer no proof whatsoever, nor did you answer even one point in the article.
Your e-mail cannot be considered a serious attempt at presenting a case, since it is full of assumptions. “They drank wine at the Passover.” The Greek word oinos can mean either fresh from the grapes or intoxicating. Who told you it was intoxicating wine? Where is your proof? Do you think you are the only one who came from denominationalism? So did I, but it has nothing to do with the point at hand. You wrote out of emotion —not sound reasoning. Has it ever occurred to you that the use of fermented wine in the Lord’s Supper came from Roman Catholicism instead of the New Testament?
Where is your evidence for Puritan influence?
Did you look up the Hebrew word for wine in Numbers 6:3? There are several different words translated “wine” in the OT. Try again.
More exchanges swiftly occurred. He wrote: “I’ve been through this argument many times. You are the one that needs proof. Do your homework.” I responded with: “I already have. You’re the one without any evidence or coherent reasoning.” Then he said he was sending me another message and would I please read it. All of these messages, including the next one were from February 5th of this year. He then wrote to say that the first topic of discussion was just a door opener. He now switched gears entirely. He wrote:
One time in the early 80s I asked two “big preachers” in the brotherhood about a God that would create mankind knowing most would burn forever in hell. They promised me that if I wouldn’t tell who, they would send me a book to read. I had no idea what they were talking about, but I gave them my word, challenged everything in the book, but couldn’t refute the principles it contained. After paying my own way to Russia a couple of times in the 90s for several months and 12 years of volunteering as a prison chaplain I have encountered questions I hadn’t expected, especially from the prison population. Please note the two attachments….
Buford
The two attachments were things that have been expressed from time to time by others and were certainly nothing earth-shattering. I was not too kind in my evaluation, but he did not seem to mind. The following exchanges occurred February, 8-10. Only the significant portions of each e-mail are included.
Gary to Buford:
I hate to deflate your ego, but you have said nothing new or different—or even interesting. I have a 37-page evaluation of Fudge’s tome that will be published in the book, Profiles in Apostasy, and distributed later this month for the Spring lectures (just north of Houston). It is a very careful and thorough refutation of Fudge’s (and your) position. You might want to read it.
Buford to Gary:
Thanks for your response. What, in a few words, can you give me a Bible verse that shows that those that do not do God’s will, will live forever. No spin, please—just the verse or verses. I can send you a dozen that claim they will be destroyed. Gary, I do have an open mind, one that led me out of denominationalism and kept me from becoming “church-of-christ-ified.” Did you read my article printed in the paper here? Is the God you serve a sadistic torturer of people throughout eternity or did Jesus say the soul and body would be destroyed in hell? Try believing what you read and you will arrive being with a God that gives perfect punishment and is over rewarding. Get off that c of c horse you have been riding and try believing what you read. You don’t deflate anything. If you choose to support Greek philosophers and the popes, that’s your choice. I choose not to. I don’t worry about what the “church-of-christ-ified” mind sets rant about. If you will keep up your ranting you will be among those that cause the percentage of disbelievers in hell to continue going down…or you could choose to believe what you read in the Word. There is still hope for you.
Gary to Buford:
You sit in judgment of the justice of God and call Him a sadistic torturer—something man should have more humility than to do, but you are big on arrogance, charging that I do not believe what I read, which is foolishness. Do you think your article said more than Fudge’s 500 pages? I analyzed all of those claims in my review. FYI, when I left the Methodist Church, I was not interested in any other religion. It was the emphasis in the Lord’s church upon truth that drew my attention. That is the reason I am still here, although many, like you, Fudge, Rubel Shelly, and others have departed. I examined the word destruction and many others.
Buford to Gary:
Over the past 15 our so years I have come to pity people that serve what they believe to be a sadistic, torturing, monster of a God. Why don’t you read the 48th chapter of Jeremiah and see how broken hearted God was, weeping and wailing because most of the Moabites deserved losing their lives due to their wickedness. Doesn’t read like He is as angry with people as you seem to picture Him does it? You cannot scare people into fearing burning in fire forever. That’s why the belief in the false hell you believe in is turning more and more people away from God. Even some teachers in the denominations are realizing the false presentation of God’s Biblical nature has brought on the good old boy theology. You and your fear merchants are to be pitied.
Gary to Buford:
Your arrogance continues! It may come as a shock to you that I have read Jeremiah 48 over 30 times. The compassion of God is not the issue; 2 Peter 3:9 and many other verses explain that.
Apparently, the fact of denominational ministers turning away from the Biblical doctrine of hell is news to you. They rejected it first—as far back as the ’60s. Where do you think some of our “brethren” got the idea from? Some are always adopting denominational trends.
The reason they and you reject it is that you don’t like the idea; thus, you sit in judgment on the Scriptures and on God. At any rate you made a slip and departed from Fudge. You said we cannot scare people into fearing God. Fudge said annihilation is even more fearful. Hmm. Wouldn’t that be trying to scare them, also?
Modernists quit believing in the virgin birth, miracles, and the resurrection of Christ decades, even centuries, ago. Are we going to start taking votes to see what doctrine is popular so we will know what to preach?
Whatever good old boy theology refers to, you apparently know, but the rest of us go by what the Scriptures teach. I was tempted to extend to you my pity in return for your gracious offer, but on further reflection, you do not appear to be worthy of it. It might be better reserved for sincere folks who have not willingly entered the land of theological gobbledegook.
Buford to Gary:
Your accusations of arrogance and “ego” are not becoming of a Christian. Is this a reflection of yourself or is it your judgment of anyone that doesn’t agree with you? Relax, Gary, and believe what you read in the Word. I’m still waiting on that verse that reveals that the ungodly will live forever. Now SURELY you can find it for me among the numerous pages you have written—unless you have written a lot of shallow ‘spin’??? Good hunting, bro. I assume you know what is revealed in 1 Jn 2:17 and 2 Peter 2:6. Go read them again and believe them without any “spin”. “The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.” “if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an EXAMPLE of what is going to happen to the ungodly….”
What is your fascination with Fudge? I haven’t mentioned anyone by the name of Fudge. All I have mentioned is verses from the Word. I don’t need to read any of your “spin.” I’m simply asking for Bible verses. Do you have a good search program? Try blueletterbible if you don’t. It’s free, but I use a couple more as well. This free program will also point you to the 12 verses that speak of “destruction.” Oh, and I used to be of the Methodist persuasion, but just a bit. It really shakes “church-of-christ-ified” folks up once in awhile when I tell them the group I was associated with had some real Christians, in the Methodist church, (repentant baptized {immersed} believers). I left them mainly because I couldn’t support their church government and communion procedures. I was immersed when 18 even though I had been ‘sprinkled’ as a youth with water from the Jordan River no less!! Live forever?
You might want to check what Jesus had to say in John 6:51 and 58. Now this isn’t spin, Gary, it’s right out of the gospel of John. I’ll be waiting for the verses. Oh, have you considered John 3:16? If everyone is going to live forever (some burning in hell forever), why is it necessary to believe in Jesus to have life that is everlasting? According to you, everyone already had life everlasting prior to that being written. Gary, the verse doesn’t say anything about going to heaven, does it? It just refers to either having life or perishing, or am I missing something??
Gary to Buford:
You really seem to have a problem with English. I have told you now three times that I have already dealt with the Scriptures and the words you keep bringing up. Do I need to type it in larger letters?
Referring to your arrogance is not just name-calling. You demonstrate it by assuming that no one knows what you think you know, no one has ever understood a few verses of Scripture as you have, or could possibly have an answer to your marvelous interpretations. That is why I refer to your ego and arrogance. If you knew more, you would know there is a lot you do not know. Perhaps I have not been as kind as I should be, but I have been truthful.
Although you did not mention Fudge, you did say you had studied from certain brethren who are not in the mainstream. Wherever you purchased your theology, it was not from the Scriptures. The lake of fire burns forever. Fires do not burn unless there is something to consume. Satan is there–and so will be his followers (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).
Buford to Gary,
Right! These burn up…death…the wages of sin. But you are “spinning.” You say, “Fires do not burn unless there is something to consume.” Like the bush Moses saw??? Your spin has spun in reverse! I’m still waiting for the verses that tell of the ungodly living forever…no spin…just Scriptures…and your self-justification about accusing others of arrogance is pitiful conduct for a Christian. AND what I wrote you is not quotes from anyone but myself. Still have a fixation on Fudge? Relax and send me the verses…not spin.
Evidently you don’t understand ‘good old boy’ theology. GOB theology is the thinking of many that just believing there is a God is enough…no need for Jesus…just be a good old boy (or girl)…which really makes a person their own God. The verses, Gary, I’m waiting on the verses.
Gary to Buford:
This is the way you handle the Scriptures? You obviously have no respect for them.
You’re like a child. “Spin! Spin! Wah, wah! He’s using spin against me! It’s good old boy theology. Spin! Spin!”
You do not know how to engage in a discussion. The bush burned but was not consumed in order to catch Moses’ attention and reveal His power to him. Whose attention is God trying to catch with everyone annihilated?! To whom is He trying to prove something to? No one, least of all, God, would maintain a lake of fire for eternity when there is nothing left to burn and no reason to burn it.
The lake of fire burns forever because its inhabitants cannot escape, they continually die, perish, and are destroyed there, which is the reason it is called the second death. It is an “everlasting destruction” away from the presence of the Lord.
Now permit me to write your response for you. “It’s the annihilation that’s everlasting. Spin! Spin! Wah, wah! He’s using spin against me! It’s good old boy theology. Spin! Spin!”
And my reply after that is: Proverbs 26:4.
Buford’s next response was more of the same; the discussion was getting nowhere, and I wrote a one word reply: Stat, meaning, “It stands.” There is no sense answering a fool according to his folly. The conversation ended. Suddenly, 6 weeks later he resumed it.